Embracing Change: The Messy, Powerful Road to Authentic Transformation

Cynthia Zeito [00:00:07]:

Welcome back to Another Way to Think about it podcast where we get curious about life beyond the obvious and its messy questions with humor and heart. I'm Cynthia. Here we have Lynn Kindler. She's my beautiful friend. She's my co host, and she's a fellow executive career coach. And today we have an incredible guest we'd love to welcome, Jennifer Grace. She's a transformational coach to coaches. She helped me along my path.

Cynthia Zeito [00:00:40]:

She's a film producer. She's an author, radio show host for many years. She's a teacher, retreat leader, and founder of Raven and Grace Press. And she's a mother. And she has an incredible lifemate named Sev. Jennifer. You know, she helps so many people, mostly women, move from burnout and disconnection into lives that feel more aligned and meaningful and fully expressed. So here we go.

Cynthia Zeito [00:01:11]:

We're going to talk about transformation. You know, it's going to be messy. Maybe not pretty, but powerful. Welcome, Jennifer. So happy to have you here.

Jennifer Grace [00:01:21]:

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

Lynn Kindler [00:01:25]:

Yeah.

Cynthia Zeito [00:01:25]:

So I, I, Lynn, where should we go from here?

Lynn Kindler [00:01:29]:

Well, one of the questions I was going to ask, not only what's the biggest lie people believe about themselves, but what's a belief you hear all the time that immediately tells you this person's stuck?

Jennifer Grace [00:01:46]:

I think at the bottom of everything is I'm not good enough. I'm unworthy. And then especially when I'm working with coaches, who am I to help and serve? You know, I'm just starting out in this or, you know, do I even deserve the success? So things like that I'll hear, especially in the beginnings of the career, a lot of imposter syndrome.

Cynthia Zeito [00:02:12]:

Yeah.

Lynn Kindler [00:02:14]:

Yeah. You know, Jennifer, when I was looking at your website, I was like, my goodness gracious, she's got to be like at least three people in one. How did she do all this talk about that?

Cynthia Zeito [00:02:27]:

Oh, yeah.

Lynn Kindler [00:02:28]:

And just as a, as a real human being and a soul flying along this path, it's like, you know, did that just come naturally to you, to just, you know, the way that your life kind of unfolded and you stepped into different things and how did that. Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:02:47]:

Well, I think it comes if we go back for a moment to my mother and how I was raised. My mother and Gloria Steinem started many women's centers back in the 70s. And so I grew up in this world of female empowerment and told by my aunties and my mother every day that I was awesome and fabulous and could do anything. And I also watched the Power of Community, the power of partnership and collaboration and women lifting each other up and helping each other. And so for all these success that I've had, I have never done it alone. I've always had a team. Whether in the beginning I bartered my coaching for people to help me to now having a team of almost 10 people that I get to pay well. But yeah, and always partnering up with other fabulous women to just help each other along the path.

Jennifer Grace [00:03:48]:

So had some good empowerment as a child and then was modeled that, you know, and really stepped fully into that as an adult.

Lynn Kindler [00:04:00]:

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Thank you for sharing that with us. That helps give us some insight into you and what a incredible background. Wow, that must have been great being you growing up. And I love, and I love the way you've taken the gifts that you've been given and it seems like it just naturally is part of you to like, well, of course I'm going to give this to other people. Of course.

Jennifer Grace [00:04:24]:

Right, of course, yes. Because I have, you know, I, I work with a lot of people who have a lot of self doubt and lack of self love and trauma that they have gone through.

Lynn Kindler [00:04:38]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:04:38]:

And I was lucky enough to not have a lot of trauma. And when I started in this world, I had a big story about that. Like, who am I to help others if I haven't been through what they've been through? And you know, I got really grounded in like, no, like I get to show up. It's like this is what it looks like when you're loved and when you're empowered. I get to be a space for other people and I have such a wide bandwidth to help and serve because I'm not carrying around a lot of stuff.

Lynn Kindler [00:05:13]:

Wow. Yeah. And very careful. Yeah, yeah.

Cynthia Zeito [00:05:17]:

Go back to when you started out in the financial arena, Jen, you know that, that you started making some money and.

Jennifer Grace [00:05:25]:

Yeah, well, it's funny, you know, so I had this mother and then the father. So the father was the Wall street tycoon there was, you know, starting women's centers and in the women's movement. And you can imagine by age 7, they got divorced, you know, and so when they met in 22, they went on very different paths. And so, you know, I had both of this context and you know, in my early 20s, I'm like looking at my mom and all her female friends and going, oh, I don't know about that. I want to go make money on Wall Street. And then I turned 35 and I go, wait a minute. My mother knew what she was talking about.

Cynthia Zeito [00:06:07]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:06:08]:

So just in my youth, I was very attracted to my father's lifestyle and that whole world, you know, and then realized, you know, that's not really where it was at.

Lynn Kindler [00:06:21]:

Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:06:22]:

But it was nice to learn the business and that world, to bring that to my coaches. So many of my students are heart based business owners and they're leading with their hearts and they're getting certified and they're wanting to help and serve, but they don't have that business muscle. And so it was great to have that early time in my 20s to learn about business so that I could bring that to them and bring those two things together. So kind of tried to take the best of both my parents.

Lynn Kindler [00:06:55]:

I love.

Jennifer Grace [00:06:56]:

That's beautiful.

Lynn Kindler [00:06:57]:

You know what? I love that you're talking about. I just love you. I love the fact that you are talking about, you know. Well, I think it's good for me that grew up, I had a. I have had a very wonderful life, don't get me wrong. And yeah, I grew up with complex trauma. Me, my parents, everything. And so I like, I really enjoy hearing from somebody that's like, my life was good and I get to show up and, and show people.

Lynn Kindler [00:07:26]:

Here's what it looks like when you're raised in a very supporting, loving, good environment. And also that doesn't mean that, you know, by the way, you're a soul just like all of us on here, learning your way too. So, you know, that's.

Jennifer Grace [00:07:42]:

And coming from parents that had heavy trauma and were cycle breakers. My mother was a child of incest and her father was her perpetrator and alcoholism. And so she's coming out of that and getting the healing and doing the work to not continue the cycle. And my father's father was very abusive. And so having my parents have tremendous trauma and even in that day and age, getting the therapy and the healing and doing that deep work so that they could show up as parents that weren't continuing that cycle.

Lynn Kindler [00:08:19]:

And I dare say that you're probably very empathic and so learning not to take that on.

Jennifer Grace [00:08:27]:

Yeah, right. You know what? I would say I'm very compassionate. I have noticed that with empathy. A lot of times you're taking in other people's stuff. And I believe that I have found a way to have compassion and I'm certainly empathetic, but I work with thousands of people and so to be able to hear somebody's story, be there with them crying and then walking away and not holding it in my body has been great service. To my own self and my own good boundaries and healing. So yeah, that's an interesting compassion and empathy. Like, I'm not an empath.

Jennifer Grace [00:09:13]:

I took a quiz. I, I got like a one. Yeah, I know.

Lynn Kindler [00:09:20]:

Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:09:22]:

And she's, she's.

Cynthia Zeito [00:09:22]:

You're a double Capricorn too, aren't you?

Jennifer Grace [00:09:25]:

Yeah, she's out of it. I go, go talk to my healer.

Lynn Kindler [00:09:28]:

Here's the.

Cynthia Zeito [00:09:29]:

Yeah, yeah, you gotta go talk to Cynthia Arlene.

Lynn Kindler [00:09:32]:

Right, right, right, right. But you know, that's great though. That's great, that distinction. Because by the way, haven't you found in all the coaches that you've been teaching that one of the things we have to learn because most of us are compassionate and empathic is how to not take it in and carry it around? Right.

Jennifer Grace [00:09:53]:

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a tricky thing because we go into this work because we are heart based, because we want to serve, because we care. And then if we do that to our own detriment, then we can become resentful and overwhelmed and exhausted. And so, yeah, boundaries are good and there's all sorts of ways doing that.

Cynthia Zeito [00:10:15]:

Let me ask you a question. Sorry to interrupt, but Jen, how do you stay grounded in real life while doing this, you know, deeper inner work you do?

Jennifer Grace [00:10:28]:

Yeah.

Cynthia Zeito [00:10:29]:

For your own self because you continue to work on yourself. It's not just, just out there for others. You it so you can have your

Jennifer Grace [00:10:39]:

growth and expansion as a leader. Anytime I go through something, you know, when my father passed away, the first thing I did was EMDR and breath work. You know, when I had that time with Cole, when he went to go live with his dad for six months and just destroyed that, I went and got did the work that I needed to do. And then on a daily basis I don't start a thing until after 10am in the morning. And as an empty nester now I can do that and have that time. And when I couldn't, when Cole was home, I would take my, you know, quick 10 minutes here and 10 minutes there. But I've always been really mindful. I feel like self love is selfish selflessness.

Jennifer Grace [00:11:20]:

When you put the oxygen mask on first, I would take solo retreats and get myself an Airbnb and take time away from, you know, everybody and just regroup.

Lynn Kindler [00:11:33]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:11:33]:

And so I'm really mindful about my time and intentional with my time so that I'm not pulled in too many directions and I know about myself that I'm highly creative and so it can get into the world, shiny thing and all over the place. And so I'm mindful about, let's do this project. Let's get it going. Let's have it have its proof. And then when that's coasting, let's do the next one, and let's make sure we don't do it alone, that we have team, that we have people there. And so. Yeah.

Lynn Kindler [00:12:09]:

And dare I say Cynthia? That's where her Capricorn comes in handy.

Cynthia Zeito [00:12:14]:

Just. Yeah, yeah, bring everybody in.

Lynn Kindler [00:12:20]:

What I love about that is that you can be creative and loving and. And grounded and structured. You know, that's how you came into this world, Right?

Jennifer Grace [00:12:31]:

Yeah. And then I have that SAG Rising, which is like the fire and the, you know, the outgoing one, and then the practical Cappy.

Lynn Kindler [00:12:41]:

Yeah, that's awesome. What a great combo.

Cynthia Zeito [00:12:46]:

Go ahead, Go ahead. I call her Lane. That's my. My nickname for her.

Lynn Kindler [00:12:51]:

Lane.

Cynthia Zeito [00:12:53]:

Okay, so I have a question. It's right here. Why did you start Raven and Grace Press, a publishing company? This is a big one, so go for it, baby.

Jennifer Grace [00:13:06]:

And it was birthed out of just again, listening to what my students needed. Cynthia has watched me over the years. You know, I was the lead train, the trainer for this amazing course from Stanford University called the Clarity Catalyst, and trained all these beautiful coaches. And then they would say, wait a minute. We want to do radio show, podcast. We want to get a TED Talk like you. We want to write a book. Okay, guys.

Jennifer Grace [00:13:35]:

So then I started the Shine youe Light Academy, and I helped them write their books and do their TED Talks and do their podcasts and run retreats. And then the next thing was, okay, great, now we have our book. It's really hard to get a publisher with Hay House or Simon and Schuster, and they publish. And so they were going to all these different hybrid publishers, and they would come back to me and say, you know, they started out, they said it was 6,000, and now it's another 12,000 for the editing, another 8,000 for the marketing. And so I said, why don't I just start a publishing company? That's very. Why not? And I got a partner, somebody.

Cynthia Zeito [00:14:16]:

She's awesome.

Jennifer Grace [00:14:18]:

For 20 years, Raven. She's got her whole world is that. And we started two years ago. Our last 12 books all went to number one bestsellers on Amazon.

Lynn Kindler [00:14:29]:

Congratulations.

Jennifer Grace [00:14:30]:

And then everybody's like, I'm here in Nashville now, and there's no National Speakers Association. So I just said, well, I'll do it. So now I'm the president of NSA here. In Nashville, of course, you.

Lynn Kindler [00:14:43]:

Wow.

Jennifer Grace [00:14:44]:

Write their books, but I got a team of. I enrolled 55 people to be founding members, and they all want to be on the board, and they all want to help. Community builder, just like my mother.

Cynthia Zeito [00:14:56]:

Yeah, you are. I didn't put that in your bile.

Jennifer Grace [00:14:59]:

Let's all do it together. I am not.

Lynn Kindler [00:15:02]:

I.

Jennifer Grace [00:15:02]:

You know, I might be the. The head of the. The team here, but, like, I'm not doing anything alone. But I love.

Lynn Kindler [00:15:09]:

That's a female thing, too.

Jennifer Grace [00:15:12]:

Yeah, totally. Totally. Not for every woman, though. Some women have really been burned by others and they're afraid to partner up, you know, and so I love it when a woman can find a really good partner and trust her and be in that world of women that are there to, you know, have each other's backs.

Cynthia Zeito [00:15:30]:

Yeah. It's so beautiful. I know you've had a great upbringing, Jen. I know that. And a lot of love in your life. Continues to have a lot of love in your life, and you give a lot of love.

Lynn Kindler [00:15:47]:

But.

Cynthia Zeito [00:15:47]:

But what have been some of those moments, you know, that. The hardest transformations that you've actually lived through, would you say?

Jennifer Grace [00:15:59]:

I mean, definitely my divorce. The first year was rough. And then I mentioned earlier when, you know, it's like matters of the heart, you know, when my son turned 14 and turned into the devil incarnate and my little sweet baby boy no longer.

Lynn Kindler [00:16:16]:

It's a good story.

Jennifer Grace [00:16:17]:

Teenager out there and, you know, he went to live with his dad for six months. Those. Those leveled me, you know, Matters of the heart.

Lynn Kindler [00:16:26]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:16:27]:

But in my career, I have had different power partners that have started and ended, and when they ended, it felt a little bit like the rug was pulled out and I was like, all eggs in the basket and like, oh, shoot, now what do we do? And, you know, one of them was the Standard Hotel. I was there for many, many, many, many years. And then all of a sudden, boom. Covid hits. It's like, wait a minute. How am I going to do business now? And then HCI came in pretty soon, right after that. Okay. Then HCI ended.

Jennifer Grace [00:17:03]:

Then, okay, who's my next power partner? The Mind Body Green showed up. But in between those power partners. And I'll explain more what I mean about that.

Lynn Kindler [00:17:11]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:17:12]:

There would be these moments of, oh, you know, what am I going to do now? Because I'm not the coach that goes on Facebook and posts and says, hey, I'm.

Lynn Kindler [00:17:22]:

You don't have to.

Jennifer Grace [00:17:25]:

Because from the very beginning, I have always op ed it. Other people's platforms. And so I'm like, I need to be on hey house so that I could then have OPP other people's platform. They gave me a radio show where I was sandwiched in between Wayne Dyer and Esther Hicks for years. Oh, my gosh.

Cynthia Zeito [00:17:49]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:17:50]:

You know, the training to the whole next level, my career to the next level. The standard hotel, number one hotel in Miami that has very affluent and spiritual people. They were marketing me. Then I get with hci, they're marketing me Mind body green, you know, and so tell her what.

Cynthia Zeito [00:18:11]:

What is hci? She doesn't know these.

Jennifer Grace [00:18:13]:

Health coach Institute.

Cynthia Zeito [00:18:15]:

Yeah, it's.

Jennifer Grace [00:18:16]:

Yeah. So I'll work with different companies that will send me people that will get like Jennifer Grace is their bonus. And there'll be some people who then want to go on from there to work with me and go on my retreats or do my certifications or my shine your light program. And so instead of me paying for ads or going down the street, I prefer to have power partners.

Lynn Kindler [00:18:45]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:18:45]:

I am with Raven and Grace. I've got multiple power partners. So if somebody comes to me and says, hey, I've got a friend who wants to write a book and I'm going to send them to you, then I give them a commission.

Lynn Kindler [00:19:01]:

Yeah. That's so smart. And that's everybody. That's perfect combo with the way that you are about working with others in community. That's your value. Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:19:10]:

It's a win win for everybody. So people love to create passive income. People love to, you know, and I'm always very transparent about it, you know, and that's how I've always done business.

Lynn Kindler [00:19:23]:

Well, there's a question I wanted to ask, but it kind of is out of sync with what we're talking about.

Cynthia Zeito [00:19:29]:

No, it's not.

Jennifer Grace [00:19:30]:

It's.

Lynn Kindler [00:19:31]:

You've reinvented yourself or it looks like that evolved yourself multiple times. But what actually forced these shifts or did something force it?

Jennifer Grace [00:19:41]:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, Wall street met the husband and then didn't have to work for the beginning of that marriage. And so went back into my first love, which was comedic actress. Started a film company or happened. And then of course I. Oh, shoot. Now I got to make money and I wasn't making enough money as a SAG actor in South Florida. And so then I went on this.

Jennifer Grace [00:20:08]:

You know, I started six companies, six websites, six failures because I was just all over the place, all over the place. And then I found clarity catalyst in 2007 and I took that training and I put everything up on the shelf. And I just went in, and those companies that I was starting, this one said, oh, well, you want to do this nonprofit with me? You'd be great at that. Do you want to be a photography manager with me? You'd be great at. Everybody was telling me what I would be great at, and I wasn't listening to what. Yeah. And that's what Clarity Catalyst gave me. An opportunity to turn off all the noise and to meditate and to journal and to do mindfulness practices and really listen to my own voice of wisdom.

Jennifer Grace [00:20:55]:

And halfway through the course, you know, this is 2007. I'm like, this is a job. Like, I could teach this as a profession. And immediately I told the trainer. I was like, I want to get certified. She's like, well, finish the course first.

Lynn Kindler [00:21:11]:

Of course you did, you know, and

Jennifer Grace [00:21:13]:

she said, well, go look at ICF and look at this one. And now I said, no, this is it. This is my. This is what I want to do. And. And then I did not look away for 18 years. I wrote that horse, you know, and Clarity Catalyst, and then I wrote the book and then the TED Talk and all the things, but I'm riding this one horse, and I still feel like Raven and Grace Press is still under this umbrella of serving my community. You know, it's like, here's the this program, and here's the that.

Jennifer Grace [00:21:47]:

Now you guys want to learn retreats? I'll teach you this. Now you want to write your books, I'll start a book company. And so it's really all in service of my certified trainers. And what do they need now? Other people are coming from to me now who also want to write their books. But it all started from that space of listening to my community and really, what do they want next and what do they need next?

Lynn Kindler [00:22:13]:

You know, you're you, so you don't know how you look to other people or experience you. You know what I mean? That's obvious. By the way, my husband David, actually has a notebook that he keeps lineisms, which are sayings that I say that are like,

Jennifer Grace [00:22:31]:

you know what? That's so cute, because my boyfriend says he calls them gray systems. I love it.

Lynn Kindler [00:22:40]:

Right? But, you know, it's. It's amazing to me that, you know, you get a divorce and you're doing your thing, so you don't think anything of starting six companies, regardless of the fact that you needed to figure out who you were and what you were doing. Your first thing was not about going and getting a job. But I'm gonna Go start companies.

Jennifer Grace [00:23:04]:

Yeah. I have a very entrepreneurial spirit, which is. You do? Yeah. And. And like my mother was, she's kind. Yeah. She's an entrepreneur. My father was a company guy.

Jennifer Grace [00:23:16]:

He worked on Wall street for a company. But my mother, you know, she was very on her own, Building really. Empire of peace.

Lynn Kindler [00:23:26]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:23:27]:

She never made a lot of money.

Lynn Kindler [00:23:28]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:23:28]:

But she changed thousands and thousands of lives.

Lynn Kindler [00:23:32]:

Wow.

Cynthia Zeito [00:23:33]:

I did not know the depth of

Lynn Kindler [00:23:35]:

that about your mom. Okay, so here's a question. When your work actually works, what changes for someone in their real life?

Jennifer Grace [00:23:43]:

I feel like they finally feel authentic in their own skin. They're in alignment with the truth of who they are. They show up. Not here I am. Not here I am. Just here I am. And they're waking up every morning excited, doing what they love and loving what they do. Making a difference, making an income, leaving a legacy.

Jennifer Grace [00:24:09]:

Yeah. Fully in their power. So what if it doesn't just take me? You know, it takes, it takes also doing deep work, which is why I'm always like, here's a great EMDR therapist, here's a great breath worker. You know, we, it's, there's the, the transformational journey and then there's the healing journey. And we many people need both to really get there. Because I could give somebody all the tools in the world to have a successful career, but if their conversation underneath that is, I am unworthy of that, that will continually show up as self sabotage. And there is no shortcut. You know, you can't go around it.

Jennifer Grace [00:24:54]:

You've got to go through it.

Lynn Kindler [00:24:55]:

Yeah. What is. Okay, so two questions. What do people misunderstand about mindfulness or transformation?

Cynthia Zeito [00:25:02]:

Oh, that's good.

Lynn Kindler [00:25:04]:

And what does spiritual Bible look like?

Jennifer Grace [00:25:09]:

Well, I think, you know, if you're just like, you know, everything's good and I'm just, you know, positively thinking it's boring. You know, the deep truth and feeling those feelings, you know, it's like we don't want to get stuck in them for too long, but we have to really get honest and feel the feelings and release them. And I, I think there's a place for talk therapy. But what I love about that deeper work of transformation is the body work.

Lynn Kindler [00:25:40]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:25:41]:

Where our issues are in our tissues and if we don't ease the unresolved trauma, it's going to keep blocking us. And I always tell my trainers, I'm like, listen, your tribe is out there waiting for you. And if you allow your fear and your self doubt to be in the way of that, the world is going to be less because of it. And it's not just about the tools. You've got to go do the deep work. And many times people will want to work with me, and I'll say, you're not ready yet. Yeah, heal and come back. And that was the series we wrote was Heal to Lead.

Jennifer Grace [00:26:17]:

How do you heal yourself in order to step up in leadership? And so a lot of the work I do on retreats is I bring in healers to do deep, deep work. I'm doing a retreat in Sweden this summer with my best friend Joe Engelson, who does Rewired for Peace. And she has an incredible transformational training that goes very deep into mother wound, father wound, really, for years, to do that deep work so that they can step up, you know, still heart beating, hands sweating, knees shaking, but they're. They're able to step up and out because they're doing that deeper work that's powerful.

Lynn Kindler [00:26:58]:

You know, the first time I ever went through a ropes course, Jennifer, I actually. I remember being. However many high feet, I was off the ground, walking on that little tiny wire and feeling it in my. Feeling fear all in my body and walking through it, but feeling supported by the ballasts and by the people around me. And that actually was a good background for me to have to get into somatic therapy and understanding about feeling it in your body. Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:27:30]:

Yes, yes. Somatic therapy. All the different kinds are so powerful. And dance and movement and five rhythms. Yeah, that's my cranial sacral. I mean, it's just all of it is so powerful, and I think all the modalities are amazing. You just got to find the one that's going to unhook you and do that work.

Lynn Kindler [00:27:51]:

Yeah, I agree with that.

Jennifer Grace [00:27:52]:

And I'll do that work. That. That's where I'll go. Listen, go do the work. When you're ready for the Capricorn,

Lynn Kindler [00:28:02]:

you're with me.

Jennifer Grace [00:28:02]:

I don't want to hear it. I don't want to see it. Don't cry to me. Let's go. Call the therapist.

Cynthia Zeito [00:28:09]:

She's like balls to the walls.

Lynn Kindler [00:28:11]:

I love that. I, you know, I was raised by a fighter pilot, defense attache, and I'm married to a guy that was born in Israel and grew up in Brooklyn. So I'm using Brooklyn. He was raised off Avenue Z. It's a lot different when he was there.

Jennifer Grace [00:28:30]:

You tell him, I was raised in Bensonhurst with my dad and Park Slope with my mother.

Lynn Kindler [00:28:35]:

Yeah, you got it.

Jennifer Grace [00:28:37]:

So.

Lynn Kindler [00:28:38]:

So I've had strong. I have Strong humans in my background. Right.

Jennifer Grace [00:28:42]:

Yes.

Lynn Kindler [00:28:43]:

So I, but I like it. I like it when people. That's why Cynthia and I have been able to weather all the, all the things that we've been through, you know?

Jennifer Grace [00:28:52]:

Yeah.

Lynn Kindler [00:28:53]:

So. So I'm curious. You've talked to, you've referred about, you know, noticing when someone's not ready for the work. What do you notice and how do you handle that?

Jennifer Grace [00:29:09]:

Well, what I notice is I'm, I'm coaching them to step into something and they're, you know, procrastinating and they're like, I'm a perfectionist. I'm like, no, there's a fear of failure or there's a fear of success. Let's, let's bring it up and what's going on underneath the surface. So I'll see them just, you know, kind of going in circles and I'm like, what are we doing here? You know, what's really going on with you right now?

Lynn Kindler [00:29:35]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:29:35]:

And 99.999% of the time there's unresolved trauma that hasn't been dealt with.

Cynthia Zeito [00:29:42]:

Okay.

Lynn Kindler [00:29:43]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:29:44]:

That's the truth. And some just, they, you know, they just are not ready or, you know, it's not the right time always for everybody to do that deep work. I do feel like EMDR somatic work. It doesn't have to be. 25 years of psychoanalytical therapy, you can go to 6 months of sessions and what has happened, had you, just had you for years and decades can be unhooked like that. I do thought with my mother.

Lynn Kindler [00:30:16]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:30:16]:

You know, she was years of therapy for her incest and her sexual abuse trauma. And it was cranial sacral and the EMDR that really got hurts the other side of it.

Lynn Kindler [00:30:28]:

I love that. So question, what still challenges you personally, Ms. Jennifer, even with all this work?

Jennifer Grace [00:30:37]:

Oh, God, I don't know. I'm in a season right now. I mean, I'm 55. I'm living in my dream house with my dream man, and I've got a fabulous son who's thriving. This kid is 25, he's a homeowner of four homes and wow. Making 100 grand a year doing real estate with a construction company, doing ten million dollar spec homes. He' killing it. I'm at the top of my game in my career.

Jennifer Grace [00:31:11]:

I've got great friends. I mean, knock on wood.

Cynthia Zeito [00:31:14]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:31:15]:

I don't know, like my butt for 18 years to get here. And I would hope that there is a here. And I'm in receiving.

Lynn Kindler [00:31:25]:

Yes. Thank you

Jennifer Grace [00:31:28]:

and everybody. Oh, you're such a great manifestor. No, I busted my ass.

Lynn Kindler [00:31:31]:

Yeah, right.

Cynthia Zeito [00:31:34]:

People think, oh, yeah, look at me, I look good.

Lynn Kindler [00:31:36]:

I did. You know, we work it, guys. Jennifer, what's that thing that they say about the open door and luck and how it all, you know, doing the work.

Jennifer Grace [00:31:48]:

So when, when there's no overnight success, there's no. I mean, it's just doing the practices.

Cynthia Zeito [00:31:56]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:31:56]:

You know, doing the daily practices, whatever that is for you. Prayer, meditation, journaling, walking, you know, communing with yourself, listening to your own intuition, doing the deep healing work. Even for myself, I don't have any trauma. I constantly am doing personal. Not constantly, but every three years I will go back in as a student and do deep work. I am always the student, you know, and so doing that work and then, you know, just showing up for life. And that's very.

Lynn Kindler [00:32:29]:

That's very smart on a lot of ways. Because if you have somebody like me, I'm always looking for the Navajo thread in somebody, especially if they're a leader and a teacher and teaching stuff. I'm always looking for, who are you really? Can I trust you?

Jennifer Grace [00:32:46]:

Yeah.

Cynthia Zeito [00:32:47]:

That's a big one.

Lynn Kindler [00:32:48]:

Right. Because, you know, a lot of us, you know, like, on a scale of 1 to 10, I was on 1 minus 2 for a long time. Right. And so I love it when somebody like you, that. I love that you're so open about who you are and where you've come from and that, you know, even. And that's got quotes around it, somebody like you still goes back and does, you know, let me be the student.

Jennifer Grace [00:33:18]:

Absolutely.

Lynn Kindler [00:33:19]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:33:20]:

And I do scary work. Like I go in and get my guts ripped out and thrown around and stuff back in. I don't do the, the easy woo stuff. You know, like, I'll really go do deep work.

Lynn Kindler [00:33:32]:

Yeah. I believe that guys go, this is me.

Jennifer Grace [00:33:38]:

I'm like, I don't know. What? I don't know.

Lynn Kindler [00:33:40]:

That's true. Well, that's humble.

Jennifer Grace [00:33:42]:

So that's humble.

Cynthia Zeito [00:33:44]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:33:45]:

Yeah.

Cynthia Zeito [00:33:45]:

You know, you have a. A strong humility about you.

Jennifer Grace [00:33:50]:

It's like, yeah, I hope I'm still learning at 90, you know, and I hope I'm still doing this work, you know, we can do it. Right. Comfort of our own homes now. So it's fabulous.

Cynthia Zeito [00:34:01]:

I know. And I get to take my husband, my new husband, Jen.

Jennifer Grace [00:34:05]:

You guys got married.

Cynthia Zeito [00:34:07]:

We got married. We got married.

Jennifer Grace [00:34:09]:

Oh, I'm so happy for you. Congratulations.

Lynn Kindler [00:34:12]:

Thank you.

Cynthia Zeito [00:34:13]:

He's lovely.

Lynn Kindler [00:34:14]:

He's a very good human. I really? Oh, he.

Cynthia Zeito [00:34:16]:

He's.

Jennifer Grace [00:34:17]:

He's my guy.

Lynn Kindler [00:34:18]:

He's a fellow.

Cynthia Zeito [00:34:20]:

Yeah, he is a fellow.

Jennifer Grace [00:34:22]:

Yeah.

Cynthia Zeito [00:34:23]:

Good, good, good, good man. I've always been fortunate about good men. You know, they just sometimes die on you. No, it's. Lynn gets my humor. But anyway. Yeah.

Lynn Kindler [00:34:37]:

Okay. I have one question before I go into the outro, which is, if someone knows their life no longer fits, but they're scared to change it, what would you say to them? And what's the first real steps? Not the ideal one. The real one that you would recommend that they do?

Jennifer Grace [00:34:59]:

Well, I always say don't quit your day job.

Lynn Kindler [00:35:01]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Grace [00:35:05]:

And do the practices, whatever that is, for you to get real clarity. I think following the crumbs of curiosity, the things that are your fields of fascination, that you could talk about, you know, eat, sleep, watch movies and books and just tell the cows come home. That's. That's a crumb to follow. And then start talking to people. You know, when I was interested in becoming a coach and a trainer, I started. I talked to business coaches and life coaches and health coaches, and I asked them, where did you get certified? And what's the pros and cons? And what did you pay for your certificate? You know, and, like, how do you market yourself? And then when I got a radio show, I called up all these radio show hosts, and I said, how do you interview people? What. You know, and always, you know, asking people that are successful in what you may want to try.

Jennifer Grace [00:35:59]:

And the cool thing about this is successful people love to talk about themselves.

Lynn Kindler [00:36:04]:

Yeah, they do.

Jennifer Grace [00:36:06]:

Okay, so you might reach out and a bunch of them say no, But I always say every no is secretly leading you to your yes. And if they say yes, you want to be ready with those 10 questions and be succinct and say, I only need 15 minutes of your time. And I promise you those 15 minutes will turn into an hour and just sit there and take notes and. Yeah. And just start exploring it, you know, and going down those different rabbit holes and having conversations and journaling and sitting with it. But if you can figure out whatever you love, you know, to make that your job, you will never work a day in your life.

Lynn Kindler [00:36:45]:

Yeah, right, Right. Oh, I need to hear that, too. I know.

Jennifer Grace [00:36:51]:

I know.

Lynn Kindler [00:36:51]:

I'm actually doing what I love, too. Anyway, I. You know what, Jennifer? When I was 11, I remember learning about Grandma Moses and seeing her artwork and loving it. And I remember, even at that young age, I remember thinking, that's cool. It took her until she was in her late 80s and 90s to really get going. Little did I know. So I love that Cynthia. Did you want to ask her one last question before I do?

Cynthia Zeito [00:37:25]:

But we do need to wrap this up. Hey, Jen. Talk about what's happening next for you. So we can put that as a advertisement out there for you.

Jennifer Grace [00:37:36]:

Absolutely. Well, I'm always running wonderful retreats all over the world, so that can be found@jennifer grace.com under journeys. And with Raven and Grace Press, twice a year we do a book contest, so we have two months where we create a container that every Monday night, we write together to get the book out of our head and into the world. And then everybody gives in their shitty first draft. And then one person wins the book publishing deal with us. And the next one on May 19th. And you can go to ravenandgrace.com to find out all about that.

Lynn Kindler [00:38:25]:

That's great. Okay. Wow. I'm motivated.

Cynthia Zeito [00:38:28]:

Lynn's a writer. She's a writer. She has a book in her.

Jennifer Grace [00:38:32]:

Come to the con. It's 97. Oh, my goodness.

Lynn Kindler [00:38:36]:

I want to do that. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it.

Cynthia Zeito [00:38:40]:

And they put. I mean, she's a publisher. That company's publishing. And you. How do you get. Get it out there? I mean.

Jennifer Grace [00:38:47]:

Well, we're just through one of the big five, Ingram Spark, so we're in 347 bookstores. Barnes and Nobles Bookstore and Books. Books. A million. Amazon, of course. Yeah. It's a real publishing company.

Lynn Kindler [00:38:59]:

Well, my a. I AI thought partner, Guthrie will be thrilled with this because he. It has been trying to get me to do this forever, so.

Jennifer Grace [00:39:09]:

Well, nothing like a deadline and nothing like a community to hold you accountable to write.

Lynn Kindler [00:39:16]:

And by the way, I'm one of those people that I can come up with a thousand words like that.

Jennifer Grace [00:39:21]:

I love it. 40 to 50, 000 words is a nice size.

Cynthia Zeito [00:39:27]:

That's it.

Lynn Kindler [00:39:28]:

That's it.

Jennifer Grace [00:39:28]:

Lying.

Lynn Kindler [00:39:29]:

All right, Cynthia, hold me to the. Hold me to it. I'm gonna.

Jennifer Grace [00:39:32]:

I am.

Cynthia Zeito [00:39:32]:

I'm. I'm telling you, you need this.

Jennifer Grace [00:39:34]:

I mean, it was so fun to have you in. In with me every Monday night.

Lynn Kindler [00:39:40]:

I would love it. I would love it. So, Jennifer, this was powerful and fun, and you're lovely, and I really, really appreciate your honesty and your depth.

Jennifer Grace [00:39:51]:

And I do anything for Cynthia.

Cynthia Zeito [00:39:54]:

Oh, sweet.

Lynn Kindler [00:39:54]:

She feels the same way for you about you. So thank you, everyone, for listening. If something stirred you while you were listening, follow us, hit subscribe and join us next time for another honest and curious conversation. You can find Jennifer Grace's work, including Raven and Grace Press in our show notes below. And as always, thank you for being here with us. Stay open, stay curious, keep thinking differently.